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does anyone know history?
Party Machine
Joined:
4/22/2007 5:17 pm
From graffenwhor,germany
Posts: 514
so i got in a argument with this guy the other day. he said i was gonna die because the army cant afford the equipment i need. i pointed out how we own the night and how my saw can mess anything up. but he was like no we need to raise taxes to be able to give the soldiers what they need. i said what? weapons and especially better body armor.(he's not up on his knowledge ether as some units are getting the knew SCAR weapon and plate carrier body armor, which im deploying with. not to mention the new piston-m4 colt just came out with.)

i then left out the fact, that every infantry man u talk to wants to get rid of the 30 extra pounds that wont let u bend at the waste. but instead i just asked him how every war from the revolutionary to WW2 was paid for? and that it wasnt by taxes. im sure there was a tax increase. but a majority was by donations. the civil war and WW2 i know were funded a great deal by war bonds i believe. i told him to go look it up and get back to me.(it might of been WW1 and WW2 paid for by war bonds. but im not 100% but i think it was the civil war.)

im still waiting lol its been about a week. but besides the whole army issue. y dont people look up what there talking about. if i dont know something i say i dont know or ill find out. i dont want him to really come back and say sry u were right. but he should had known how the history of the military has worked if he is gonna try and tell me about it.

Posted on: 1/30/2011 8:34 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
well first of all I'm glad you're all equipped up there in Germany but we lost a lot of good people in Iraq because we didn't send the equipment needed. The Republicans wanted to run the war on the cheap and wouldn't equip our troops. When I say a lot of people I am talking about hundreds and hundreds died without the armor and weapons needed.

Secondly, WWII was the last time we treated war seriously. Everything went into the WWII effort. Everything. Yes, there were war bonds but that was back in the days of high tax rates. 35% middle class, 70% tax rate above middle class.

And US bonds are paid off with taxes. If your question is did the US try to pay for the war with taxes on an as you go basis, the answer is no, they did what they had to do, period. A large debt was run up. Budget wasn't an issue. But the debt for the entire history of our country including WWII was only 1 trillion when Reagan came into office.

On the other hand, everything was a lot more practical back in the 40's. And we made what we needed. Someday, sooner rather than later, the US illusionist economy will collapse and we will be doing that again.

In wars since then, we don't call them wars and we don't act like we're at war. They are conflicts, and we don't send people off who have any money or connections unless they volunteer. We don't pay for them, we just run up debt. We mostly equipped them decently until Rumsfeld ran our troops into Iraq like it was a summer day excursion to the beach, then wouldn't equip them with armor and IED defenses because it would make the neocons look bad to be wrong.

Lastly, not paying with taxes is an illusion. We pay one way or the other. With Nam, we created an inflation mess that didn't abate until the early 80's with a recession that had been the worst until the Great Republican Recession of the 2000's. And we have $14 trillion debt, most of it run up during Iraq, the rest run up in the 80's under Reagan.

What we have the last two years that the Republicans dumped on us is a failed country.

They hated the government, and were bound to destroy it, and they did.

rd

Posted on: 1/30/2011 9:59 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Suspected Punter
Joined:
4/5/2009 8:38 am
From Origin: Ravenswood, WV Now: North Georgia
Posts: 115
You should ignore these people who are consumed with their hate for anybody with a different opinion. It's always the blame game.

Historically we have attempted to provide our fighting men and women with the best resources available, in Nam it was the helicopter that revolutionized warfare, in Iraq it was pin point cruise missile preemptive strikes, and as you mentioned young man, the SAW and the best training in the world.

America has your back, stand tall and get home safe, and more importantly Thanks for Serving our Country!!!

Posted on: 1/30/2011 10:25 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Party Machine
Joined:
4/22/2007 5:17 pm
From graffenwhor,germany
Posts: 514
dont take this the wrong way but ur very democratic lol. cant really blame them. u can blame the majority that voted for them. and then u have congress that passed the bills. the president is only supposed to enforce the laws not make them.

as far as the armor issue thats a catch 22. its hard to stop a 200lbs bomb no matter what ur in. and idk if anything can stop a EFP. and if ur on foot the force its self is to much for the body. idk if u have ever throw a grenade but they have a big boom. much less a bomb in a car going off. im not saying ur wrong but its something kinda new. we dont really have the tactics for it. like the minie' ball in the civil war. the newer mraps do alot better. they still get royally messed up. but u'll live threw it. not saying ur wrong but its harder than saying "just fix it".

i know u pay taxes no matter what. thats how the government makes money. thats y i think they should stay out of business.

and ur right about the inflation. i think i read somewhere that minimum wadge would only be like 1.75 without inflation.

i was just wondering how far off i was on that argument. and y kids today r so dumb.

gaeer
thanks for supporting us. but in my honest opinion y there is so many deaths. we cant do what we need to do. our hands are tide. like this past week we started going over certain rules we can and cant do. i feel if im getting shot at i should be able to do what ever i need to do to kill who ever is shooting at me personally.

Posted on: 1/30/2011 10:27 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
You need to learn more about the armor and lack of armor for IED's during Iraq. What the US government did to our troops in refusing to armor the vehicles is inexcusable.

Don't worry about offending me, this is the Soap Box.

rd

Posted on: 1/30/2011 10:31 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
Putting our troops on patrol in civilian areas shouldn't be done. We have done this all the way back to Nam. They shoot at you from behind civilians, or allegedly civilians, certainly women and children.

It calls for a different solution than the US Army.

rd

Posted on: 1/30/2011 10:35 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Suspected Punter
Joined:
4/5/2009 8:38 am
From Origin: Ravenswood, WV Now: North Georgia
Posts: 115
Hang in there KmasterC, unfortunately Politicians still stick their fingers in where they don't belong, where fighting men are risking their lives for the good of all. Unfortunately, that is the way it is, and has been since Nam, do what you must to survive! I speak as one who also served! God Bless You!

Posted on: 1/30/2011 10:40 am
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"Isn't it about time somebody done something" Bill Ray Vulgar 610 WTVN
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Re: does anyone know history?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
I as well served during Nam.

rd

Posted on: 1/30/2011 10:53 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Party Machine
Joined:
4/22/2007 5:17 pm
From graffenwhor,germany
Posts: 514
but then u have the terrorists being able to just walk around and do what they want. thats y its called a show of force. it shows ur still there. its the same things as the police driving around neighborhoods. u dont always have an objective when u go on patrol. sometimes its just to look around and say hey to the people give some kids some candy. when 9/11 happened what if there wasnt soldiers and police out around NYC?

i remember hearing about all the problems. and im sure there were democrats that turned down w/e bill was brought up to. the thing about refitting a army is it coasts alot. not just to make but to teach the soldiers how it works. which all takes time. i posted something about the latvian haveing the g-36(2000 dollars) compared to our m4(1000 dollars) the g 36 is better. but they only have to supply 6000 troops with it. where the we have to supply 100,000 troops.

everything in the army is junk lol. but its way better than we r fighting against. an ak-47 can miss a target 10 meters away. were i have hit a target 600 meters with a m4 and with my saw.thats y the in 78 the soviet union stopped using them.

lol but really most things made by the army arnt good i.e. wet weather gear that makes u wetter. but everything we get from the private sector works great.

but as far as ur situation read the book, war in afgahnistan send more ammo. its about how were training up the afgahn army and police. theres only 2 us soldiers in a afgahn platoon. now this is mostly in the older parts that we have already been through but there still some fighting.

on the other side see the movie restrepo. it doesnt really show all the polotics. but thats mostly how ill be fighting. except the house search. were not aloud to go into houses, or go into villages if were under fire lol.

Posted on: 1/30/2011 11:04 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Pitt Hater
Joined:
1/4/2008 11:32 am
From Southwest VA ... via Pleasants County, USA
Posts: 1290
Just to reiterate the historic component of the question, the Civil War and World Wars I and II were paid largely through war bonds, which were a kind of savings bond. It's a treasury instrument, same as other bonds and paid the same way.

There were a series of war loans during the Civil War, largely handled by the leading financiers and industrialists of the day. Unlike the later war loans in the 20th century, these instruments were largely marketed to wealthy individuals and paid competitive rates for the time.

Financing the Civil War is what first gave us paper currency--"greenbacks"-- with the Legal Tender Act in 1862. It also gave us the Internal Revenue Act, so you can blame the confederates for that. Personal income for the vast majority of wage-earners wasn't a target yet (except for federal employees), but there were excise or sin taxes on nearly everything, and tariff rates were raised several times (Morrill Tariff Act). Before the IRS, the majority of federal money came from tariffs. They're hardly part of the picture today.

During World wars I and II war bonds were directly marketed to the public, often in small denominations, through carefully orchestrated publicity campaigns. The way they were marketed, patriotic Americans loaned the money to the soldiers overseas. They could be deducted from your pay as well. The government raised a whole lot of money this way, which was good, because it was a breathtakingly expensive war.

As far as your assumption goes about just contributing the funding, citizens' "donations" were in the fact that the bonds paid less than market value for similar securities.

Since World War II war financing has had significantly more congressional oversight. That's probably because we haven't been in a declared war since. Military funding is done the way all federal projects are, with authorization and appropriations bills. There's one exception, with Vietnam: Johnson proposed and Congress approved a 6% surcharge tax on all personal and corporate income to support the Vietnam War. One of the reasons Johnson didn't run for a second term. following that, the Cooper-Church amendment to the Foreign Military Sales Bill was one of the first efforts to limit presidential power during a war, or a police action that looks like one, by tying up the purse strings.

Lastly, I'll differ with RD a bit--the gov't pays its loans with income at least as much as taxation. It's not all taxes by a long shot.

Posted on: 1/31/2011 1:51 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
I don't understand that last sentence, rocket. You mean other government income besides taxation?

Posted on: 1/31/2011 1:57 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Pitt Hater
Joined:
1/4/2008 11:32 am
From Southwest VA ... via Pleasants County, USA
Posts: 1290
Quote:

rdwrites wrote:
I don't understand that last sentence, rocket. You mean other government income besides taxation?


Absolutely. Don't forget the Federal Reserve System is the biggest bank in the world. it dumps billions and billions into the treasury. And there are hundreds of federal trust funds invested all over the place. All over. It's one of the things that makes me shake my head when I see people ranting about bailing out the "too big to fail" banks. The government made money twice on that. Think of it as investing to protect its investments.

Posted on: 1/31/2011 3:10 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
interesting. I wish I could be more optimistic about where this is headed. I believe we will have to go to a WWII type economy and sacrifices to support this house of cards.

Posted on: 1/31/2011 3:35 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
8/2/2010 10:50 am
From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4832
Obviously KmasterC people here do not know history very well.

World war II was fought on the back of DEBT. This debt was NOT paid off as some on here have stated. It was paid down and over time. When you buy war bonds you are purchasing DEBT of the government. I have no idea why this is so hard to understand. THe debt in 1940 was about $43 billion dollars. The debt in 1950 was $257 billion. WWII cost a lot of money. I can imagine the conversation we would be having today if our government sextupled the debt? in the space of 10 years.

KmasterC, the war bond drive during WW II is unmatched by any other country or any other time. It is really VERY IMPRESSIVE. This capability was a result of 2 things. First, the excellent financial foundation our citizenry lived within and second, patriotism and a singular purpose. If we tried that today, our citizenry (including me) would not be able to do this because of our VERY POOR financial positions. During 2007 and 2008 we had a NEGATIVE SAVING RATE! The first number we have of savings rate is 1959 and that was 8.3%.

The debt for WW II is still here. When the war bonds matured and were redeemed, the money to pay them off was either paid from proceeds of US Savings bonds or US Treasury bonds. The only war that I know was "paid off" is the Civil War. I am not that familiar with this issue. I would have to look more into it. I am a bit skeptical that all of the debt was eliminated. The revolutionary war funding I am not sure about but we did receive a lot of support from foreign countries. I do know that our country has always had a debt. Alexander Hamilton, our first Sec. of Treasury, was a proponent of debt as a method of currency regulation and growth mechanism. Over time a level of debt is reduced in importance due to inflation. For example, we had a total debt of ~$250 billion in 1950. We have a $250 billion DEFICIT EACH QUARTER NOW.

Posted on: 1/31/2011 9:15 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Pitt Hater
Joined:
6/26/2010 9:15 am
Posts: 2388
I am going to answer the subject with one simple statement.
Always remember - "History is always written by the winners".

Posted on: 1/31/2011 11:47 am
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Re: does anyone know history?
Party Machine
Joined:
4/22/2007 5:17 pm
From graffenwhor,germany
Posts: 514
When I was talkin about donations it was aimed at people like George Washington who donated the equilavant of 200,000 I think during the revolutionary war. Not much but u didn't need much ether. And there were other paper bills before the green back. Just they were state bank bills. But thanks for all the info guys. If there's anymore keep it coming

Posted on: 1/31/2011 4:17 pm
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Re: does anyone know history?
Party Machine
Joined:
10/4/2010 9:08 pm
From Morgantown
Posts: 712
I like turtles.

Posted on: 1/31/2011 4:40 pm
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Re: does anyone know history?
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
3/14/2009 2:07 pm
From RT. 50
Posts: 800
It's a little off subject, but part of the reason we are saddled with all this debt is because we went into Iraq. I've been there and there is not one reason for us to be their for that matter we haven't fought in a war since WW II, except Afghanistan, that we should have been. We screwed up in Afghanistan up by wasting all our resources in Iraq and allowing the Taliban to get organized. We need to learn to mind our own business and practice a little more isolationism! I can't explain it you'll understand after you come back!

Posted on: 1/31/2011 10:11 pm
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Re: does anyone know history?
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
9/2/2008 5:03 am
From Elkins, WV
Posts: 761
gaeer--Quote:
You should ignore these people who are consumed with their hate for anybody with a different opinion. It's always the blame game.

Yet you are a big fan of right-wing radio? Ironic much?

KmasterC--Quote:
and im sure there were democrats that turned down w/e bill was brought up to.

First of all, thanks for your service. But, how are you sure of this? To my memory, every funding bill for the troops passed Congress. Second, the White House, and both houses of Congress were controlled by the Republicans from the 2002 mid-terms (and took office 3 months prior to the invasion) until 2006, so even if Democrats wanted to defund the troops (which they didn't), doubtful that it would have been effective.

I'd like to pause now for my favorite quote ever from Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense under Bush the dumber:
Quote:
Dec. 8, 2004-- In one of the exchanges during the town-hall-style meeting, Spec. Thomas Wilson complained that he and his comrades were rooting through junkyards to find improvised armor for their military vehicles to protect against bomb blasts and small-arms attacks.

"A lot of us are getting ready to move north relatively soon," said Wilson, an airplane mechanic with the Tennessee Army National Guard, according to a transcript of the meeting released by the Pentagon. "Our vehicles are not armored. We're digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that's already been shot up . . . picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles to take into combat. We do not have proper . . . vehicles to carry with us north."

Rumsfeld replied: "As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

This from a man who, along with his Project For A New American Century neocon buddies, had been planning for an invasion of Iraq since the Clinton administration. Check out the line at the top of page 51 of the link that states that it would be easier to get their goals accomplished if a "catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor" were to occur. That document is from 2000-- funny how such an event (9/11) occurred 9 months after they took power. What amazing luck.

Here's the deal: the neocons knew that their stated reasons for invading Iraq had little to no factual basis, and they wanted the least scrutiny by the public possible. That meant keeping the cost to the citizenry, and the number of individuals deployed as low as possible. That's why Bush the dumber not only did not raise taxes to pay for the war, he actually lowered taxes-- probably the first time in the history of mankind that a country at war lowered taxes. He also sent in far fewer troops than any competent study of a potential invasion of Iraq had suggested, and stop lossed those sent into numerous deployments.

As for their unstated reasons-- establishing a permanent military presence in the Middle East (evidenced by the Vatican sized embassy we have built in Baghdad), and gaining control of Iraq's oil for western oil companies, well a picture is worth a thousand neocon words:

Open in new window

Posted on: 2/1/2011 5:28 am
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Attention all sPitt fans: SUCK ON MY BIG 12!

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Re: does anyone know history?
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
6/12/2010 11:13 pm
From Jacksonville, FL via Parkersburg
Posts: 3634
and that is the story of the neocons Iraq misadventure.

We lost a lot of good people who had to resort to trying to protect their vehicles with sandbags.

Lots and lots of good men and women died in neocon vain.

Rest in Peace.

rd

Posted on: 2/1/2011 7:15 am
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