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Tax Debate
Suspected Punter
Joined:
1/4/2008 11:09 pm
From Lavalette,WV
Posts: 233
Let's get it on!!!!!

Posted on: 12/9/2010 1:45 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
WMITC
Joined:
1/6/2008 1:03 pm
From Here
Posts: 23549
This issue illustrates why I'm a registered Independent. The GOP doesn't give a **** about the American people and the Democrats don't have the balls to stand up and fight for them.

Posted on: 12/9/2010 1:59 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Suspected Punter
Joined:
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From Lavalette,WV
Posts: 233
i will concur. bunch a vagasaurus rexs!!!

Posted on: 12/9/2010 2:10 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Gettin' Schmitty
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1/18/2008 2:39 pm
Posts: 8385
What Sane said...

Posted on: 12/9/2010 2:43 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Suspected Punter
Joined:
1/4/2008 11:09 pm
From Lavalette,WV
Posts: 233
So what kind of deal do you think these morons will end up with?

Posted on: 12/9/2010 2:50 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
WMITC
Joined:
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Posts: 23549
I don't know. If the Dems don't grow a set, I suppose all the rich folks will get their tax breaks and eventually the GOP will control both houses of Congress and find a way to eliminate unemployment benefits.

I don't buy the argument that tax breaks for the wealthy will translate into jobs. If I were Obama, I'd hold a news conference every Friday after the tax breaks are extended. This is what I would say:

"Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'm here today to ask the top 2 percent of Americans to join me here next Friday and publicly announce how many jobs they created this week."

Then, next Friday, I'd do it all over again.

Posted on: 12/9/2010 5:45 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
8/2/2010 10:50 am
From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4832
Here we go. Last thread in the soapbox I was called a pansy liberal. By the time I am done here I am sure people will say I am a Bible toting conservative righter.

Here are some facts that apply to this debate.

1. 70% of all new jobs are created by small business.
1A. 48% of all workers work for either the government or large businesses
2. Those small businesses are normally taxed as S-corp type organizations. By that I mean that all income from the corporation passes to the individual on their individual income taxes.
3. The people in 2 will benefit greatly from maintaining the Bush tax cuts.

We desperately need jobs. While I am not saying that I think the people above will just rush out and hire people willy-nilly I do believe that with more available cash that small businesses will be able to take more of a chance and hire workers earlier.

Large corporations probably won't add large numbers of workers because we don't manufacture as much anymore here due to the facts that it is more advantageous or even that off shoring is viable.

This is why the Bush tax cuts are going to be extended. I can not believe we are having a great concern over $70 billion per year when we have no problems spending $100 billion per year to cover a pittance of people who probably didn't want healthcare to start with and forcing them to get it. While all of the people who would like healthcare but couldn't get it will still not have healthcare. Especially if they work for the union bosses who of course are looking out for the worker, right?

Posted on: 12/9/2010 6:06 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
12/15/2007 1:43 pm
From Raleigh, NC (St. Marys, WV)
Posts: 3765
Brobison is a Bible toting conservative righter.

Posted on: 12/10/2010 4:12 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
WMITC
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Posts: 23549
Except for when he's a pansy liberal.

Posted on: 12/10/2010 7:43 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
7/26/2010 8:51 pm
From charleston, wv
Posts: 1103
Quote:

SaneJane wrote:
I don't know. If the Dems don't grow a set, I suppose all the rich folks will get their tax breaks and eventually the GOP will control both houses of Congress and find a way to eliminate unemployment benefits.

I don't buy the argument that tax breaks for the wealthy will translate into jobs. If I were Obama, I'd hold a news conference every Friday after the tax breaks are extended. This is what I would say:

"Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'm here today to ask the top 2 percent of Americans to join me here next Friday and publicly announce how many jobs they created this week."

Then, next Friday, I'd do it all over again.


Reference the unemployment rates after the bush tax cuts last time and also the revenue that was brought in from all the people working.

Also reference the manner in which money was spent an the housing mess for where we are now.

Posted on: 12/11/2010 11:49 am
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Re: Tax Debate
Anonymous
Account_DeletedAnonymous
In all fairness 1% of the population pays 42% of the taxes.


Its not wrong of the rich to say that they think thats unfair.



HOWEVER based on precedent, they need to raise them back up, this is the lowest its ever been and the economy was always stronger when their tax rates were higher.

Posted on: 12/11/2010 11:55 am
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Re: Tax Debate
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
3/24/2008 7:05 pm
From Here
Posts: 3438
Laffer Curve.

Posted on: 12/11/2010 5:43 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
8/2/2010 10:50 am
From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4832
Winky Wrong,

The top 1% of all earners paid 29% of the taxes when their rates were 39%. I do not know what it is now but I doubt that it is higher now. The top 5% paid 50% of the taxes.


As to the things were better when taxes were higher. I think that truly, you may have the cart before the horse. It may be possible that the taxes were higher BECAUSE the economy was better. I have to tell you to raise taxes during rough economic times is not advocated by any of the economic theories that compete agains each other.

The whole tax rate debate boils down to a fundamental belief that will never be solved (I think). That is, is it better for an individual to keep and spend his/her money or is it better for the government. I really don't think there is a right answer. There are some valid arguments on either side. For the most part I believe that it is better for the individual to spend his/her own money. (I am a neo-classical economist at heart and a definite free-market person). After saying that, the past two and a half years have not been normal times and I believe that the government dropped the ball. Now, I believe that stimulus is less needed and that the individual can handle things on his/her own now.

Posted on: 12/17/2010 8:55 am
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Re: Tax Debate
WMITC
Joined:
1/6/2008 1:03 pm
From Here
Posts: 23549
I understand why the compromise was made and I won't lose sleep because the wealthy got to keep their tax breaks. I just want them all to quit whining about it and go hire a bunch of people.

(Yeah, right.)


Posted on: 12/17/2010 4:58 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
9/20/2009 11:32 am
From Morgantown
Posts: 808
Quote:

brobison wrote:
I have to tell you to raise taxes during rough economic times is not advocated by any of the economic theories that compete agains each other.

But that's in a world where the debt is not out of control. That's not the world we live in now. It's pretty much agreed that cuts for the wealthiest have very little stimulative effect but cost a lot of money. Why add to the debt when the only people who will get real benefit are the wealthiest of the wealthy? Makes no sense! Raising taxes isn't an all or nothing game. We can and should be smart about how we do it.

Quote:

The whole tax rate debate boils down to a fundamental belief that will never be solved (I think). That is, is it better for an individual to keep and spend his/her money or is it better for the government. I really don't think there is a right answer. There are some valid arguments on either side. For the most part I believe that it is better for the individual to spend his/her own money. (I am a neo-classical economist at heart and a definite free-market person). After saying that, the past two and a half years have not been normal times and I believe that the government dropped the ball. Now, I believe that stimulus is less needed and that the individual can handle things on his/her own now.


I don't fully agree that this is THE fundamental source of disagreement over tax policy but do agree that it's part of it. And yes, there are valid arguments on both sides. The issue I have with the side you take, Brobison, is that the wealthy in this country keep getting wealthier while the poor get poorer. There's been a massive shift of wealth to the top few percent over the last few decades that just can't continue if we want to maintain America in some semblance as it has been.

Do you see this imbalance in wealth as an issue? And how do you think it should addressed?

Posted on: 12/17/2010 9:56 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
8/2/2010 10:50 am
From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4832
The basic argument you have is wrong. Sorry, but the poor get poorer? The poor of the world would give their eye tooth to be the poorest of the poor in America. That is a fact. 60% of southern Africans live on less than $1 per day. Yes....you read that right. I can not stand for people to tell me how bad the poor in the country have it. I have been all over the world and I have seen EXTREMELY poor people. By the way, those poor that I have seen are in China, a socialist country where there is only government property technically and South Africa who tax their rich quite heavily. Thailand where I am not sure of the tax law and even in UK. I would say overall that there may not be quite as poor people in the UK I would say that their average is below our average.

I have said before our debt is not a big deal and you can read other threads here to find the reasons I have and I am not alone.

Finally, while the seperation between rich and poor has increased it is NOT true that the poor have gotten poorer. In fact our poorest have gotten wealthier too. Just at a slower pace. The last 2 to 3 years have been an anomaly. Those in our workforce that have been hit the hardest are those with the least education. Time and time again everyone younger than my age 45 knows the way things are. We were ALL told when I was going through school that you have to have an education or a trade.

Posted on: 12/18/2010 10:33 pm
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Re: Tax Debate
Grant Ave. Warrior
Joined:
9/20/2009 11:32 am
From Morgantown
Posts: 808
First, my impression was that we were discussing US tax policy so not sure what the poor in other countries have to do with it. I don't think the measure of our success should be that our poor are better off than the poor elsewhere. Also, don't think you have a monopoly on knowledge of the world's poor. I have traveled extensively throughout Asia and the Middle East and have worked and lived in China and India. I've spent years living and working in some of the poorest places in the world. I need no lessons in that area.

Back to the US....

It's fair for you to argue that the poor are better now than they used to be. I'd have to do some research to see if taken inflation that's true but I suspect you're correct. The point I should have made is the one you pointed out - that income disparity has gotten worse. But if you're suggesting that this is only an issue over the last 2 or 3 years then I disagree. This has been the trend pretty much since the 70s. Read what Greenspan says about the risks of income equality. The vast majority of economists agree that income and wealth equality are a significant problem in the US that needs to be addressed. You acknowledge that it exists. Do you think it needs to be addressed? And how?

As for whether the debt is a big deal or not, I disagree with you. Is the sky falling as some argue? No. But I think it's something that we need to start addressing very soon and find it very concerning that we appear not to have any political will to talk about it honestly.

Posted on: 12/19/2010 12:53 am
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Re: Tax Debate
Makin' it Rain
Joined:
8/2/2010 10:50 am
From Canonsburg, PA
Posts: 4832
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uni ... istribution_1947-2007.svg

This link shows the relative income in 2007 dollars since 1947. That does not appear to be very convincing argument that things have changed a whole lot. It also appears to me that this inequity goes all the way to 1947 and I suspect that if you check before then you will find the same before.

My point of the rest of the world is that there are a myriad of tax policy regimes and they not only don't help the poor they in many instances exacerbate the problem by attempting to help. If you really want to help the poor, grow the economy. The problem with our country and the reason we are ceding our leadership to other countries is our complete lack of educating our youth and the fact that we only tell our youth how special they are. Many of them are special in that they should be taking the "short bus" to school but we continue to blow smoke up their butts and tell them how great they are doing.

I hate to sound cold and hard because I am not. I do a lot of charity work but the strong will succeed and the weak will not! That is the way it is. Look at nature...heck spend time in a chicken coop and watch the strong peck the weak to death. We don't do that! In fact the graph shows our weak are doing better each year. When you look at the fact that the bottom 1% pay -2% of the taxes that may be the problem. Why try to get to the bottom 5% when I can stay at the bottom 1% and get paid to do it.

While I don't particularly like a large income inequality I do not think there is anyway to rectify that situation. There is only the ability to "raise all boats" by improving the economy.

Great sociteties and economies are that way because they: Protect personal rights, protect intellectual property, give equal access to the legal system and have transparent and open capital markets. There has never been a great society that I know of that takes wealth away from the wealthy and distributes that money to the poor.

Posted on: 12/19/2010 10:50 am
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Re: Tax Debate

Joined:
12/7/2009 7:07 pm
From Charlottesville, Virginia
Posts: 12958
You do realize that the graph you posted is designed so that it will NOT show the inequality in the distribution among the classes. Normally a graph will have equal increments so that it shows a rise in equal increments. On this graph, however,the marginal increase is not equal between each two points, but rather it is actually doubled. If you look at the left hand side, you can see that the number doubles for each segment, rather than rise at an equal rate. If you look carefully, you will see the smaller "ticks" on the line that show where the segment is equidistant from the first segment. What this means, if the data for the graph is correct, is that the disparity in wealth is actually rising EXPONENTIALLY, and is NOT staying the same. Whoever graphed it this way is being intentionally misleading.

The author actually recognized this when he says:

NOTE: The y-axis uses a logarithmic scale. This may cause confusion when viewing this data.

Posted on: 12/19/2010 11:09 am
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Re: Tax Debate
Pitt Hater
Joined:
8/22/2007 7:48 pm
From Frederick, MD
Posts: 2601
So are we saying that lower marginal rates for the "rich" have caused income disparity to increase? If someone could explain the mechanism of how that works I'd like to hear. In my mind government hand outs to anybody, including the poor, could hardly count as income. Government obviously can't create jobs in the private sector (see $800B stimulous fail). They are very good at creating government jobs, but a government job is never a source of tax income to the government, hence it is not an income producing job at all. So somebody please tell me how taking more money from the rich helps narrow the income disparity, except by obviously making the rich less rich. How does it make the poor more rich?

Posted on: 12/19/2010 11:52 am
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